TRANSCRIPT

THE HON PETER COSTELLO MP
Treasurer

Full Transcript

Interview with Neil Mitchell, Foxtel

Melbourne

Saturday Broadcast, 15 March 2003

MITCHELL:

Mr Costello, welcome.

TREASURER:

Thanks very much Neil.

MITCHELL:

Now we don’t want this to be the normal political interview, do we? Can we

play a bit of a game to start with?

TREASURER:

I am in your hands.

MITCHELL:

A bit of a word game. I’ll just give you a word and you just give me an off

the top reaction, okay.

Money?

TREASURER:

An occupational pre-occupation.

MITCHELL:

Queen Elizabeth the Second?

TREASURER:

Distinguished public figure.

MITCHELL:

Success?

TREASURER:

Hard to achieve.

MITCHELL:

Failure?

TREASURER:

Easy to achieve.

MITCHELL:

Women?

TREASURER:

Nice.

MITCHELL:

Magnificent…Journalists?

TREASURER:

Difficult, cantankerous, with the exception of the current company.

MITCHELL:

Politicians?

TREASURER:

Mixed.

MITCHELL:

John Howard?

TREASURER:

Very dedicated.

MITCHELL:

Kevin Sheedy?

TREASURER:

The greatest.

MITCHELL:

Which one?

TREASURER:

Coach.

MITCHELL:

The Lodge?

TREASURER:

Not a bad house.

MITCHELL:

Live there?

TREASURER:

I’ve visited.

MITCHELL:

Ambition?

TREASURER:

By and large, good.

MITCHELL:

Personal ambition?

TREASURER:

Sometimes.

MITCHELL:

Today?

TREASURER:

No.

MITCHELL:

Bob Hawke?

TREASURER:

What a head of hair.

MITCHELL:

Jealous?

TREASURER:

Absolutely. I saw him on the radio, tv the other day, I have never seen a

head of hair like it.

MITCHELL:

Jeff Kennet?

TREASURER:

Strong leadership.

MITCHELL:

Good?

TREASURER:

Strong points and he had weaknesses that came with it.

MITCHELL:

Paul Keating?

TREASURER:

Recession.

MITCHELL:

Tim Costello.

TREASURER:

Dedicated.

MITCHELL:

Irritating?

TREASURER:

No, dedicated and multi-faceted. A lot of different sides.

MITCHELL:

Sex?

TREASURER:

By and large, quite good.

MITCHELL:

When’s it bad?

TREASURER:

Why, are you making me an offer are you?

MITCHELL:

I think it’s getting a bit dangerous, we might be getting a psychological

profile of you. What would we get if we got inside your head, what’s in there?

TREASURER:

I think there’s many sides to me. There’s the family side which people don’t

see. I have three children, a beautiful wife, suburban house with barbecue.

Nothing makes me happier than doing a barbecue on the weekend. There is a sports

fan in there that loves sporting contests and following sporting contests. There

is a professional person in there that you probably see mostly on your television

sets, and there is a whole lot of quirky things in there. There is a Bob Dylan

fan in there.

MITCHELL:

Really? What particular Bob Dylan do you like?

TREASURER:

More the early Dylan than the late Dylan.

MITCHELL:

What other quirks are there?

TREASURER:

I don’t know if I can reveal them all to you. But it’s, look, like most people

I have different sides, different interests. People see the political side the

most, because that is what is on television, but that does not occupy me 24

hours a day. You work hard, you work long hours, but there are other things

that interest me. Literature interests me a lot.

MITCHELL:

What’s the last book you read?

TREASURER:

The last book that I read was over Christmas called The Founding Fathers.

It was a series on the Founding Fathers in the United States and their relationships

with each other, Jefferson and Adams.

MITCHELL:

Just a bit of light reading?

TREASURER:

It was quite interesting actually. Alexander Hamilton, unbelievably talented

people who were experts in science and economics and politics and who, essentially,

created the greatest experiment in democratic government that the world has

ever known.

MITCHELL:

One of the words I should have asked you to react to I suppose was `image’,

because you have talked about a person there which isn’t the public image of

Peter Costello, is it?

TREASURER:

No, that is because I have been Treasurer in Australia for 7 years, which

is…

MITCHELL:

But can you relax in public?

TREASURER:

Not really, because one of the difficulties for a Treasurer, is, you are asked

a question on the economy and you say something that is loose – the stock market

might move, the currency market might move – you will be flashed up on wires,

and then people will complain that you made them money or lost them money. So,

in a world which trades continuously 24 hours a day, the utterances are seized

on, and you do have to be quite careful as a consequence of that.

MITCHELL:

You mentioned family as being desperately important, but surely family and

politics are, no matter how hard you try, pretty inconsistent? Your family must

suffer?

TREASURER:

Oh they do, yes, of course they do.

MITCHELL:

Do you feel guilty about that?

TREASURER:

Yes, I do.

MITCHELL:

So what do you do about it?

TREASURER:

Well, I try and spend as much time with them as I can. You are away for very

long periods of time, generally speaking every Monday to Friday, probably a

day on the weekend too, so, and that day that you come home you’re tired, you’re

worn out…

MITCHELL:

Grumpy…

TREASURER:

…you want to sleep…

MITCHELL:

…snap at the kids…

TREASURER:

…and they want your time and they want your interest. And you do try and

make that up to them when you can, maybe on annual holiday, or whatever.

MITCHELL:

So, how long can you keep doing it?

TREASURER:

Oh well, as I said I have been Treasurer for 7 years, which is a pretty good

run, and I am now doing my eighth Budget and I am very focused on that, I can

assure you.

MITCHELL:

Last one?

TREASURER:

Look, I don’t look at any budgets other than the one I am doing. They are

all hard enough without thinking about what you are going to do in the future.

MITCHELL:

See, I am reminded that recently I asked you how old you were and you didn’t

know. So you didn’t even have time to think about that, do you know the answer

now?

TREASURER:

Well, it doesn’t really matter how old I am, what turns on it? I mean, whether

I am 43, or 42 or whatever I am.

MITCHELL:

What is it?

TREASURER:

It is 46 this year, so I am 45.

MITCHELL:

Do you know when?

TREASURER:

It’s August, I was born in 1957 so I am 45.

MITCHELL:

Is it?

TREASURER:

Is that right?

MITCHELL:

I don’t know, you’re the Treasurer. I can’t count.

Just back to the family thing briefly, your wife was very ill for a while,

you nearly lost her didn’t you?

TREASURER:

Mmm.

MITCHELL:

That must influence you, even years down the track, when you look at your

family?

TREASURER:

Oh it does. Look, if you have had that experience, and we have, where she

was taken by a very sudden and dramatic illness and hovered between life and

death, it does affect you, it affects your relationships. You begin to think

how precious life is, what is important in life and what is not, and it gives

you a real perspective on things. It’s the kind of perspective that you lose

in the day to day nitty gritty. You know, sometimes we get really worked up

about things which, in the long scheme of life are not important, and I try

and maintain that perspective on life.

MITCHELL:

How long ago was that?

TREASURER:

Well that was before I went into Parliament, that was 1988.

MITCHELL:

So how do you maintain the perspective after all those years?

TREASURER:

Well, you know, you try and maintain a perspective of what’s important in

your life, your family, your kids, their future, the future of your friends.

I think it’s been useful for me because, as you can imagine, in public life

you get blamed for a whole lot of things, mostly, some of which you have done,

but most of which you haven’t done. And it allows you to rise above the slings

and arrows, to some degree.

MITCHELL:

If you were Prime Minister would our troops be in the Gulf now?

TREASURER:

Well, my view is that Saddam Hussein is a dictator who cannot be trusted with

weapons of mass destruction. And if he were to voluntarily give them up, the

problem would be solved. But knowing Saddam Hussein and his record he is not

going to do that. And I think the international community is right to want to

disarm him.

MITCHELL:

But would you have pre-deployed the troops?

TREASURER:

Well, I was part of the decision to pre-deploy the troops.

MITCHELL:

Well, no, you have to go along…

TREASURER:

Yes, but look…

MITCHELL:

…you are bound by it as a, I understand…

TREASURER:

…I am a member of the National Security Committee of Cabinet. I was part

of the decision to deploy the troops. And I agree with it, yes I do.

MITCHELL:

Would you still prefer United Nations approval for any action in Iraq?

TREASURER:

If the United Nations were to unequivocally authorise action in Iraq, yes,

I think that would make the statement so much stronger and would, in relation

to the response, give it much wider support, yes I do. But if it doesn’t, I

don’t say that the UN should be the final arbiter.

MITCHELL:

Would you be willing to see Australian troops go in without UN approval?

TREASURER:

Well, as I said, I do not believe that the – look – it would be great to have

the support of the UN and I hope that it can be obtained. But I am not one of

those people that says the determination of Australian foreign policy, Australian

commitment to war, hangs on the UN. And I will tell you why. The UN can only

pass a resolution with a majority, nine, as you know, and where the five permanent

countries don’t exercise a veto. If you say that our foreign policy will be

determined by a UN vote, you are essentially giving to those five countries

the right to veto our foreign policy, including France. Now, my view is, Australia’s

foreign policy, Australia’s defence commitments should be determined by the

Australian Government, obviously taking into account what the UN thinks, but

not be subject to a veto or to a UN majority.

MITCHELL:

War is inevitable now, is it not?

TREASURER:

Look, you would have to say, Neil with the large number of troops that have

now been pre-deployed, particularly by the Americans, the probabilities are,

unless we see some dramatic change from Saddam, the probabilities are more likely

than not, that force will be used.

MITCHELL:

And the probabilities are that Australia will be involved, given the way you’ve

just explained it?

TREASURER:

No decision has been made yet, as you know, but Australia has pre-deployed

troops so that in the event that the Government makes that decision, they can

be deployed.

MITCHELL:

Do you think this will be an unpopular war? There is certainly division in

the country at the moment?

TREASURER:

I don’t know that wars are ever popular. Everybody hates war.

MITCHELL:

No but they have popular support, or they have majority support, if not popular

support?

TREASURER:

Well, look, there are different levels, obviously, but people forget, there

was a lot of opposition to the First World War. At the beginning of the Second

World War, Australian unions were black banning a lot of the war effort, Vietnam

obviously, there has always been opposition to war and I expect that there will

be in relation to this as well.

MITCHELL:

How heavily will it weigh on you sitting in a Cabinet which is deciding on

whether to send Australians into action, possibly, probably almost certainly

some of them to their deaths?

TREASURER:

It weighs very heavily, you don’t take this lightly. You don’t take it frivolously

and you don’t take it without good reason.

MITCHELL:

Who do you talk to about it outside politics? Do you go to somebody like you

brother, or do you go to somebody and discuss it?

TREASURER:

You don’t tend to discuss it with people outside politics because, for obvious

reasons these are very sensitive national security matters. And you are privy

to a lot of information which can not be revealed to people outside, so you

tend to discuss it mostly with your colleagues.

MITCHELL:

Well that is an interesting point given that you are privy to this information,

you are convinced that we have to act against Saddam and you think that war

is…

TREASURER:

Well, you know, look, I think if the international community were to now withdraw,

and Saddam were to keep weapons of mass destruction, then those weapons would

most probably be used again. They have already been used, with immense human

casualty. I think his ownership of those weapons would de-stabilise the Gulf,

and I also think that other would-be dictators around the world would say, me

too. If he can have them, why can’t I? And I can see that multiplying problems

around the world.

MITCHELL:

Does that make Australia a risk, does that put Australia at risk?

TREASURER:

You know Neil, I think I said to you before the last election on your programme,

that Australia would be a terrorist risk, and I think a lot of people at the

time said that I was being alarmist…

MITCHELL:

Yes, you were criticised.

TREASURER:

…and I was criticised, widely criticised for saying that. And then we had

Bali. And the reasons why I said it at that time, was that what makes Australia

a risk is, we are a western society, we are a democratic society, we stand for

a whole lot of values that terrorists don’t like. So, regardless of what we

do, there will be terrorists who, for whatever reason, don’t care whether they

take it out on Australians or not, as we saw in Bali.

MITCHELL:

But does this increase the terror risk in Australia? (inaudible)…

TREASURER:

Well, one thing we know, one thing we do know, and I make this point, is, and

we have had this from Osama bin Laden himself, he sees Australia as a terrorist

target because of what we did in East Timor. Now people are saying, oh well,

we have become a terrorist target because of what happened in the Middle East.

Osama bin Laden said he viewed Australia as a target because of what it did

in East Timor.

MITCHELL:

Yes.

TREASURER:

They were his words, so we can take it from the horse’s mouth. What did we

do in East Timor? Well, from our point of view, what we did is, we helped people

who had suffered appallingly get their own country and their own government.

According to Mr bin Laden, he saw this as some kind of attack on a Muslim country,

which it was not. Now, why do I make that point? It is to say this, that in

the twisted mind of the terrorist, logic doesn’t have much place. And all of

these people that say, oh well, we wouldn’t be a terrorist target but now we

will, give to the terrorist mind a kind of logic which it doesn’t possess, Neil,

that is the point.

MITCHELL:

Well,therefore, if we are going to be involved in Iraq it has to increase our

standing as a terrorist target, surely?

TREASURER:

Well, my point is, that in the twisted mind of the terrorists they don’t work

logically. We are already a target. We are a target because of East Timor, we

are a target for other reasons.

MITCHELL:

Do you believe it will be a short war?

TREASURER:

Well, look, I am not going to, I am not going to postulate on that. I hope

that there is no war.

MITCHELL:

What will it mean to business in this country? It seems to me the world’s been

in a holding pattern for some time on this now, if you look at the international

markets, up and down but mostly down. What will it mean to business in this

country if we do go into such a conflict, not just Australia but the rest of

the world?

TREASURER:

The international situation is bad, Neil, from an economic point of view, and

Iraq does not help. Even if there were no Iraq, it would be bad. Why is it bad?

It is bad because world stock markets have had enormous falls, an enormous amount

of wealth has been lost by people around the world. The American economy has

been in recession, Europe is going nowhere, Japan is going nowhere. Add to that

the threat of war, the uncertainty that war brings, but more immediately higher

oil prices. That will be another factor which is slowing the world economies.

MITCHELL:

Well, have they peaked yet, the oil prices?

TREASURER:

Not necessarily.

MITCHELL:

Will you do something about that? Would you reduce your tax take on petrol

to keep oil prices, to keep petrol price at a reasonable level, just for economic

reasons?

TREASURER:

The oil, the petrol price has gone up because the oil price has gone up…

MITCHELL:

But you can reduce the cost by reducing your tax?

TREASURER:

…not because of any taxation change.

MITCHELL:

Reduce your tax, bring the price down?

TREASURER:

You couldn’t do it.

MITCHELL:

Why?

TREASURER:

Because the price is far in excess of movements in taxation.

MITCHELL:

But you could knock 10 cents off torrow if you wanted to?

TREASURER:

I don’t think we should run our tax policy according to the dictates of the

Middle Eastern oil market.

MITCHELL:

I am thinking about the economy of Australia which is obviously is going to

hurt by high petrol prices. You could help it by bringing the prices down?

TREASURER:

And then to make up for it when the taxes come down, put the tax up. What would

the ultimate outcome of that be?

MITCHELL:

So you wouldn’t do it?

TREASURER:

No.

MITCHELL:

Do you have estimates on what the war will cost Australia?

TREASURER:

The pre-deployment, which we have already made, the men on the ground, the

ships, the aircraft, is of the order of hundreds of millions of dollars.

MITCHELL:

So, we have got to double or treble that presumably if we go into action?

TREASURER:

It is impossible for me to say because one, I don’t know there is going to

be a war, but you can’t cost these things until you know what the duration is

going to be, what it will involve. To date it is hundreds of millions.

MITCHELL:

So how do you cope with it, I mean, when it’s going to be bigger that it is

today, by definition, it’s going to be on for a while at the very least. How

do you cope with that, where do we get the money?

TREASURER:

Well, our Budget is in surplus. We have worked very hard to get it into surplus.

So, the way we will pay for the hundreds of millions, is by using some of the

funds that we have put aside. What it will mean, is, we won’t be able to do

other things we would have done.

MITCHELL:

Such as?

TREASURER:

Well we won’t be doing them, so there is no point going into what they are…

MITCHELL:

You must know?

TREASURER:

…but, the fact of the matter is we might have been able to do other things

and now, because of the war, we won’t.

MITCHELL:

Is tax relief one of those things that you would have to put on hold?

TREASURER:

Oh, well I am not going into what we would have done, but the fact is and the

public knows it, we have got our troops in the Middle East, that will have to

be funded and that means that we will have to be very careful of our resources

and take them out from other areas.

MITCHELL:

It will be a very tough Budget with the war and the drought?

TREASURER:

Oh it is a hard Budget. A bad international economy, the worst drought in one

hundred years – still hasn’t broken – and a war. So, put those three together

at any one time. See…

MITCHELL:

So we are not expecting anything in the Budget?

TREASURER:

…one of those individually, in the past, has proved too much for the Australian

economy. Last time we had a US recession, Australia went into recession. This

time we kept growing. The last time we had a bad drought, Australia went into

recession. This time we kept growing…

MITCHELL:

So how do you…?

TREASURER:

…this time we had both an American recession and a drought simultaneously

and a threat of war.

MITCHELL:

So how do you balance the books in the end?

TREASURER:

You have got to be very careful. One of the reasons why the Australian Budget

is in good shape, is, we have repaid $60 billion of the Labor debt. And that

has set us up for a lot of strength we wouldn’t have had otherwise.

MITCHELL:

Who’s going to lead the Liberals at the next election? Who’s going to lead

them?

TREASURER:

Well look the situation is, as you know, Mr Howard has said he will…

MITCHELL:

Are we going to go around in circles…?

TREASURER:

No, no, no. He said he is going to consider his position later on in the year,

which he will do, and there is no point speculating before then.

MITCHELL:

Do you want it? No, not the next election. At any election? Do you still want

to be Prime Minister?

TREASURER:

Look, he will consider his position, he will announce what he is doing, I will

announce what I am doing. But there is no point, there is just no point, I don’t

see any point in commenting on it, in advance of that. We have things to do.

We have a war on. We have a Budget. I am focussed on both. When they are over,

he has laid down a timetable, and we will get on with that.

MITCHELL:

I have been told that some of your supporters are saying that if you don’t

get the job, sooner or later, that they will effectively wreck the Party. Do

you believe that?

TREASURER:

No.

MITCHELL:

Haven’t heard anybody saying that?

TREASURER:

Not to me.

MITCHELL:

Are your supporters that passionate?

TREASURER:

Look, you would have to tell me who these so-called people are. But that is

certainly not my view and I have never heard anyone say it.

MITCHELL:

Would you stay in politics long term?

TREASURER:

I think you stay in politics, I stay in politics whilst my electors want me

to represent them, that is number one, and in my own seat…

MITCHELL:

(inaudible)

TREASURER:

…and secondly while I feel I can make a useful contribution.

MITCHELL:

With all we have discussed why would you even want to be Prime Minister?

TREASURER:

Well, I think that I can make a useful contribution in what I am doing. And

while I feel that, I will do it. But, I also think when you get to the point

where you feel your contribution is not useful, you should do other things.

MITCHELL:

What would you do?

TREASURER:

Oh well, before I was involved in politics I was involved with law, as you

know, and in business.

MITCHELL:

Are you wealthy?

TREASURER:

No.

MITCHELL:

You could have been if you hadn’t gone into politics?

TREASURER:

Yes, I would be much better financially today if I hadn’t gone into politics.

MITCHELL:

Does that worry you?

TREASURER:

Well, you know, I earn much less as the Federal Treasurer than I did twelve

years ago when I was self-employed…

MITCHELL:

See a lot of politicians…

TREASURER:

…and that is twelve years later.

MITCHELL:

…yeah well that’s a lot of money. A lot of politicians I talk to, say I will

get out and then make money. Bob Hawke did it. Would you like to do that?

TREASURER:

Look, I guess I am like most people. I would like to provide for my family.

But other than that money has never been of great interest to me, personal money,

if it had been I wouldn’t do what I am doing now.

MITCHELL:

Well, would you rather be Prime Minister or worth a billion dollars?

TREASURER:

Well, money is not my primary motivation obviously. If it were a big motivation

for me I would not be doing this. I would have stayed at what I was doing before

I went into politics, now…

MITCHELL:

So you would rather be Prime Minister?

TREASURER:

…now having said that, I don’t want to live in sackcloth and ashes, and I

don’t want my kids on the pavement, so like everybody else, you know, I want

a decent income to house and educate and look after them. But after that, you

know, I am not really interested in speed boats or whatever else you do with

wealth. What do you do with wealth? You tell me?

MITCHELL:

Buy power. Now we decided how old you were, what was it?

TREASURER:

Forty five.

MITCHELL:

Forty five or thereabouts. Have you had your mid life crisis yet?

TREASURER:

No.

MITCHELL:

Are you going to?

TREASURER:

Oh I am looking forward to that.

MITCHELL:

What will it be?

TREASURER:

I don’t know. But I am quite looking forward to it. I feel I have sort of earned

it.

MITCHELL:

That might be a change of career?

TREASURER:

Could be.

MITCHELL:

Do you enjoy life?

TREASURER:

Yes, I do.

MITCHELL:

What gives you the most pleasure in life?

TREASURER:

My family, my friends, ideas, faith…

MITCHELL:

Religion?

TREASURER:

…football team…

MITCHELL:

Oh same thing. Do you have enough time in your life for those things?

TREASURER:

No.

MITCHELL:

So why do you do it?

TREASURER:

You do it because you want to make a contribution. I feel it is an honour to

be the Treasurer of Australia. I feel that I have been honoured to hold it for

seven years, it is one of the longest stretches that we have had and I think

we have done some good things.

MITCHELL:

Mr Costello thank you very much for your time. Will you come back and do it

again when you are Prime Minister?

TREASURER:

Well, I would love to come back and talk to you whenever I get the opportunity

Neil, thanks.

MITCHELL:

And when you are Prime Minister?

TREASURER:

I love to talk to you and…

MITCHELL:

Could we lock it in?

TREASURER:

…you know what I like about you? You never let up and that is one of the

entertaining things about this.

MITCHELL:

You know what drives me mad about you? You never answer the question. Thank

you very much for your time.

TREASURER:

Thanks very much.